Welcome to St. Paul Airlines, !
Main Menu

Who's Online
 Welcome Guest
Join Us!


 Login:
User:


Password:


Remember me



Retrieve lost Password
 Online
 Members:2
 Guests:3
 Total:5
 Online Members
 wschneid 
 Marcel 

SPA Recommends
VirtualCol Simulations

Return to Misty Moorings

flyawaysimulation.com

Avsim.com

Flightsim.com

SimRoutes

Flight Simulator Navigation

FS Goof's

Airman's Information Manual

NOAA Metar Access

IFR Refresher Magazine

History of MSFS

Flightaware.com

Fly Better

Aviator90 videos

search pnForum latest posts Note: Registered users can subscribe to notifications about new posts Note: Registered users can subscribe to notifications about new posts

to previous topic Print topic to next topic

Start ::  Pilot's Lobby ::  VATSIM Tips & Tricks ::  Landing in Minneapolis in heavy snow 07/12/01
Moderated by:

Bottom 

Landing in Minneapolis in heavy snow 07/12/01

SPA031 Posted: 02.12.2007, 07:12

SPA031

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1107

Status: offline
last visit: 09.04.18
Minneapolis center gave me instructions to turn right to 180 degrees and descend to 3000 feet for a landing in Minneapolis. The active runways were 12L and 12R. Weather was 10017G21KT 1/2SM R30L/3500V4000FT SN FZFG VV005 M08/M11 A3001. As I descended in zero visibility, I monitored my progress in FSNav and waited for Center to hand me off to the tower. When I reached 3000 feet, I almost missed my turn onto the glide slope and Center never handed me off to the tower. What was I to do?

I chose to call the tower and ask for clearance to land on 12R. Clearance was granted. The tower then informed a departing United flight that I was inbound and that he should hold short of 12R. As I landed (visibility was in the thousands of feet) Center started private messaging me about a near collision and informed me that I could have been banned from VATSIM.

Tower handed me off to Ground and I asked the ground controller about a near collision. He didn't seem to know what was going on.

I am wondering if there is any communication between Center, Tower, and Ground. It looks like there were new controllers coming on line while I was in the process of landing.

8-)
Top  Profile send PM
 
YETIV8R Posted: 02.12.2007, 10:06

YETIV8R

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1529

Status: offline
last visit: 04.09.13
Bobby,

You are in big trouble dude.

When you think you need to be transferred to a different controller or need to go lower, just ask the controller for permission before you decide on your own.

Remember this is same in real life and in VATSIM!! :lol:

Aside from that, WTF!! I hate when the controllers threaten you like that. Who do they think they are! They never admit their mistakes and consider them as GODS of the Virtual skies. I know there are some really good controllers but some of them are there just for the kick!

Anyway, Bobby, thanks for keeping your cool.

I do not have the answer to your last question.

See you soon.

Naresh
Top  Profile send PM
 
Anonymous Posted: 02.12.2007, 10:19
Unregistered User Hi Bob,

Just curious why you didn't contact Center again (and again), whilst maintaining your altitude and follow the missed approach procedure towards the hold pattern once required.

I think that would have been safest overall and would have allowed you to separate communication and landing clearance issues.

I appreciate your opinions.

Rgds
Herman LMML
SPA156
Top 
 
SPA031 Posted: 02.12.2007, 14:05

SPA031

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1107

Status: offline
last visit: 09.04.18
I agree that I should have just declared a missed approach and executed that procedure when I lost contact with Center. Instead, I waited for Center to hand me off to the tower and that didn't happen until it was too late to capture the ILS.

My question is - do I proceed on a current assigned heading (180 degrees) while trying to contact Center, or do I take the runway heading and then execute the missed approach? What if I was flying over the runway while someone was taking off? I don't want to go wandering around all over the terrain or city at low altitude not knowing what is out there ahead of me. For all I know there might be other traffic or even obstacles like communication towers in the area.

As you can see, I am new to all this. I thought that contacting the tower was the safest option at the time. If I could not contact the tower also, then I'm in trouble for sure.
Top  Profile send PM
 
Anonymous Posted: 02.12.2007, 15:26
Unregistered User Hi Bob,

This is an interesting issue and here's my view.

Generally speaking, as a pilot it's always [i]safety above all[/i]. ATCs are not to be relied on or waited for, but to be actively approached and informed.

In other words, a pilot should take the lead and never feel subordinate to ATC despite its instructions are to be followed by pilots under its obligation to separate traffic, prevent collisions and maintain an orderly flow of all traffic (see ICAO Annex 11 for international ATS standards and practices).

After all, it's the pilot in command's final duty to assure the safety of its aircraft and passengers at all times regardless ATC's performance.

In your particular case, as far as you described, your options were limited indeed. I think you did right by contacting Tower as after all you remained under radar control. Though personally I would have maintained the altitude and follow the assigned heading in slow flight (or if on final execute the missed approach into the hold pattern) whilst pushing for ATC instructions.

In case no further ATC communication could have been established, your options still included checking for radio failure, keeping an eye on your onboard radar (if any) and escalating the matter by initiating a proper Pan (or if in distress a Mayday) call on the emergency frequency with the appropriate transponder setting. This should alert ATC and nearby traffic (at least in reality).

But most importantly, last-minute troubleshooting in the sky says something about the flight preparation. Any such situation is to be well prepared for as part of the pre-departure flightplan whilst still on the ground (including setting a nearby aerodrome as alternative destination). Once such situation would occur, you would simply follow your backup plan(s) at hand. :-)

Rgds
Herman LMML
SPA156
Top 
 
Anonymous Posted: 02.12.2007, 16:31
Unregistered User Bob, this sort of thing is the reason I don't fly VATSIM more often. Granted, this kind of fubar on ATC's part is the exception, not the rule, and I've had more good experiences than bad on VATSIM, but the arrogance and self-importance of the few just drives me crazy! Indeed...Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Perfectly understandable that Center blew it. This is, after all, virtual flying, nobody's gonna die, and things happen in real life that might distract the best controller. I [i]think[/i] I would have continued on the assigned heading and called Center to politely inquire about which one of us was confused. But then on the other hand, why should I blow a perfectly good approach because Center can't keep their eyes on the ball? And it seems pretty clear that that's exactly what happened. If they had a problem with aircraft spacing, I doubt they would have handled it by just having you fly right on through your last turn onto final!

I complained to VATSIM once about an incident, and never got any response at all, despite a follow-up email. So I won't waste my time again. Seems to me you exercised your best judgement in handling [u]their[/u] error. If they want to threaten or ban pilots for doing that, their skies will get pretty lonely!

Top 
 
SPA031 Posted: 03.12.2007, 06:19

SPA031

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1107

Status: offline
last visit: 09.04.18
I was flying in zero visibility after all and I was very busy controlling the aircraft. This wasn't a Piper Cub. I thought at the time that it was best to make radio contact with the tower, and I still feel it was the safest way to go. I wasn't about to go charging blind across country at 3000 feet and 190 KTS at a heading of 180 degrees without permission. It would have been dangerous, and besides there are noise restrictions over the city.



edited by: Robert_Thompson, Dec 03, 2007 - 06:31 AM
Top  Profile send PM
 
Anonymous Posted: 03.12.2007, 14:06
Unregistered User I don't want to point out the simplest answer... but it was probably just to ask ctr for a freq change. If he had a reason for keeping you he'd have told you, or he would have given you away.
Top 
 
SPA031 Posted: 05.12.2007, 06:42

SPA031

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1107

Status: offline
last visit: 09.04.18
Well, you had to be there to judge the situation.
Top  Profile send PM
 
KenLeMay Posted: 05.12.2007, 10:51

KenLeMay

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 800

Status: offline
last visit: 12.06.11
Bob,
Like you said, you had to be there. Here's what I would do in the meantime. I'd go to their website, and send them and email.

http://www.minniecenter.org/module.php?page=feedback

Just be honest with them, tell them your frustrations (politically correct of course) lol, and see what happens.

We're all human, and some take things more seriously than others, but one thing is for sure, communication is the key.

take care,



Ken LeMay
SPA009
Top  Profile send PM
 
SPA031 Posted: 05.12.2007, 12:08

SPA031

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 1107

Status: offline
last visit: 09.04.18
Ken:

I sent them an email as soon as I finished the VATSIM session. Still, no response. It might be because I gave them a very low rating on that one. I am still waiting for a response, but don't expect to get one. Typical lack of communications, I expect.

I suggest that our VATSIM users send out an email to the MSP VATSIM staff once in a while and tell them how we feel, good or bad.

One thing to note, when you file your VATSIM flight plan, be sure to enter some comments. Tell them you do not have voice communications, for instance. Or, tell them that you are new to VATSIM so they do not expect a polished performance on your part. Or, tell them that you do not have the charts. Anything that would impact your VATSIM experience would be helpful.

Remember, you can always file VFR if the weather is good, but then make sure that you follow the VFR regulations. Look them up if you don't know them. Do you homework so you don't fly VFR into an airspace that requires an IFR flight plan, for instance.

8-)
Top  Profile send PM
 
SPA118 Posted: 05.12.2007, 20:50



registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 579

Status: offline
last visit: 21.07.14
Don't forget to put www.stpaulairlines.com in the comments section of your VATSIM flightplan also! Shameless promotion every time... :-D

Eric M. Eder, SPA118
Miami Hub Manager
miamanager@stpaulairlines.com

Top  Profile send PM
 
KenLeMay Posted: 06.12.2007, 10:21

KenLeMay

registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 800

Status: offline
last visit: 12.06.11
Eric,

That is a great tip! Bob, your exactly right, use the Comments section of the flight plan to your advantage!

Ken LeMay
SPA009
Top  Profile send PM
 


Users online:
wschneid - Marcel

This list bases on the users active in the last 60 minutes


Powered by pnForum Version 2.6

Copyright 2000 - 2012 St. Paul Airlines

Web site powered by PostNuke ADODB database library PHP Language