Welcome to St. Paul Airlines, !
Main Menu

Who's Online
 Welcome Guest
Join Us!



Remember me

Retrieve lost Password
 Online Members

SPA Recommends
VirtualCol Simulations

Return to Misty Moorings





Flight Simulator Navigation

FS Goof's

Airman's Information Manual

NOAA Metar Access

IFR Refresher Magazine

History of MSFS


Fly Better

Aviator90 videos

search pnForum latest posts Note: Registered users can subscribe to notifications about new posts Note: Registered users can subscribe to notifications about new posts

to previous topic Print topic to next topic

Start ::  Pilot's Lobby ::  Navigation in MSFS ::  Approach plate Y23 questions
Moderated by:


Approach plate Y23 questions

jer029 Posted: 03.01.2012, 21:05


registered: Nov. 2011
Posts: 816

Status: offline
last visit: 25.09.18
I've had a great time flying the training flights, and I like the FS save and load feature that allows me to get quickly to critical points of practice like DME-arc approaches and circle approach. The material you folks have provided has been wonderful and I'm really learning a lot.

I've been flying and learning as I go - still not ready to try on-line flying because I'm still figuring out the ATC stuff. I managed to fly my assigned flights so that RC4 and FSPassengers liked the results, but I want to continue my realistic flying.

Here're my questions:

I was looking at flying the taxi flights under Bush Ops since I haven't seen regular flight assignments for a while, so I thought that would allow me to fly the King-Air, which I've become comfortable with - allowing me to concentrate on Nav and ATC stuff. I saw the KMSP-Y23 route, so started working some flight plans based on my limited knowledge. First, the website sent me to a dead link related to necessary flight planning. Undaunted, I found a site called runwayfinder.com and began trying to pick airways and approaches that would align me with RWY35 - most likely the active, with wind out of the north.

My first questions came regarding planning the enroute leg after lifting off from KMSP RWY4. It seemed reasonable to link up with V78, but this seemed to take me too far north, so perhaps V413, but that had an interesting leg off of GEP where it was referred to something like V413-5?? I dont remember the rest, but it seemed to transition from GEP to EAU, this low-level airway. I ended up with two approach plates RNAV (GPS) and VOR/DME-A.

Since I wasn't using GPS, the intersections shown on that plate were of little use to me, so that took me to the other plate.

I finally let RC4 direct me on a 090 heading to EAU after filing plan of KMSP EAU Y23. Based on the the two plates I knew that 334 to 336 would direct me to the airport from EAU so made that turn at EAU. At that point RC4 ATC stepped me down to 3200, which I recognized as the MSA for Y23. I located RWY35 and landed safely.

If I did fly the VOR/DME-A I was coming from the south and if my studies were correct, VOR/DME-A directs to the airport, not a specific runway. So... I'm flying along and get to EAU, turn left on 334 from EAU. The solid line on the 1 min hold at RPD - means that I have to hold for a minute? Then I get to continue to the airport - but now I'm on the wrong side for RWY35. Also, how do I enter that holding pattern at RPD from a 334 heading off of EAU? If I continue to RPD don't I run the risk of colliding with other aircraft making their r-turn from a 136 to 316 in their own hold pattern?

If someone can offer some guidance from my overly verbose post I appreciate any and all constructive direction.


Top  Profile send PM Homepage
Westcoast Posted: 05.01.2012, 00:11


registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 964

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.18

Let me take a pass at a few of your questions. Jump in here Jerry (or one of our other real world IFR pilots) if I am saying something wrong here.

Flight planning: KMSP to Y23 is a very short range "taxi" flight. The victor (low altitude) airways are unsuitable because they tend to run crosswise to the direct flight path and because you will end up flying more miles to get on the airway than they are worth. Nonetheless, if you want to file an IFR flight plan, then KMSP EAU Y23 is a good choice. It gives you a VOR close to your destination to which you can fly directly and from which you can join the approach you choose. Make sure to use the appropriate sectional chart (www.skyvector.com) to familiarize yourself with the terrain and to be sure you are maintaining an altutude well above the terrain for the instrument portions of your flight. You cannot get this information from the low altitude enroute charts if you are not flying on the published airways.

Approach. The first question is which way is the wind blowing and what is the wind speed. If the wind velocity is fairly high, this will select your runway for you. Given that your aircraft is not GPS equipped or RNAV capable, the VOR?DME approach is your only published option for an IFR approach to Y23. You can navigate to RPD from EAU and join the VOR/DME-A approach at that point. You are not required to enter the one minute holding pattern, but you may want to do that to descend to 3200'. The VOR/DME-A approach is clearly most suitable for approach to Rwy 17, but it can be used to circle and land on Rwy 35 if the ceiling is adequate for you to break out and make a circling approach under the ceiling. Note that the minimums for a circling approach are 1680' and 1 mile visibility. this means the ceiling must be at least 622' AGL. If the ceiling is high enough, you can simply navigate from EAU on the appropriate radial and make a "visual" approach to Rwy 35. You should be clear which approach you plan to make before leaving KMSP (it's a short flight).

I recommend a commercial flight planning program like FSCommander as an improvement over the flight planning software built into FSX, although that is adequate for most purposes.

Hope this helps.


edited by: Westcoast, Jan 04, 2012 - 10:13 PM

Top  Profile send PM
jer029 Posted: 05.01.2012, 19:37


registered: Nov. 2011
Posts: 816

Status: offline
last visit: 25.09.18
Thanks for the information Mike, I must say that the training flights here have really been fun and interesting - and, I never thought I would be flying the king air after playing with the big planes, but I've really gotten interested in the navigation, flight planning and approach parts of the hobby.

Still, I'm finding as many questions as answers as I move along. I find that the information you folks provide and the FSX for real world pilots book I got have helped greatly.


Top  Profile send PM Homepage
jetjerry Posted: 10.01.2012, 10:55


registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 840

Status: offline
last visit: 21.01.14

You have chosen an interesting route and approach. 8-)
First, you must file an approved route with ATC to get from KMSP to Y23. In a busy terminal area like MSP it is most likely ATC will not leave you on it anyway. However, for academic purposes we'll do it by the book.
Look at the Low Alt Enroute Chart. What I would file is : (KMSP) MSP075.TWINZ.EAU281..EAU..RPD (Y23). That is the MSP 075 Radial to TWINZ and then the EAU 281 Radial to EAU, direct to RPD. You can do this because these are Flight Checked Radials shown on the Low Enroute Chart. Or choose any of the Airway routes that would get you there.
Note the (T) next to RICE LAKE at the RPD VOR box. That means it is a Terminal Class VOR...it only has a usable range of 25nm (unless Flight Checked otherwise).
As for the Approach. The title VOR/DME-A means it is not to a specific runway (the "A"). If it were to a rwy it would show VOR/DME-RWY23 (or whatever). Therefore for the App into Y23 only Circling Minimums apply. The King Air 350 would fall into Category "B" aircraft (I think) because it's speed would be between 91 kts and 121 kts on approach. This is based on Ref landing speed or 1.3 times Vso.
Now, look at the APP Plate.
If you were to arrive from over RZN then the Transition from RZN for the App to RPD is spelled out for you: 3200' on the 132 Radial from RZN for 35 miles. Note the NoPT means you would not need to fly a Procedure Turn if you were cleared for the Approach from over RZN...but notice there is a 4 degree diff between the crs inbound (132) to RPD and Outbound (136).
Now, since you are arriving from over EAU you would follow the Transition showing: 3200'/334R/33.6nm then you must fly a Procedure Turn when you get to RPD...except in this case a One Minute Holding Pattern is depicted instead of a PT barb. This means you MUST use a Holding Pattern entry to establish yourself on the App inbound. The reason for this is because the protected airspace for a Holding Pattern is less than for a PT. Why ATC needs this, you don't know...perhaps the nearby Airways. So, you would use either a Parallel or Tear Drop entry. I would use a Tear Drop because you would have more time to get yourself well established on the inbound Radial before passing the Fix inbound (RPD). (Google holding pattern entry if you wish to know more)
When you descend out of the clouds and see the airport you may then circle to any rwy you wish. Keep in mind that you may have only the minimum wx required for this App...622'/1 mile. Therefore you must be careful not to pull the aircraft back into the clouds while you are looking at the ground, and you will need to stay within 1 mile of the airport for all your maneuvering in order to stay visual with the airport. This type of App can be very dangerous because so much of your attention is diverted outside the airplane.
The lines below the altitudes on the app plate (3200 & 2400) mean At or Above. Lines above mean at or below, and altitudes bracketed by two lines are mandatory.
The faint line coming into the Airport View box that shows 136/3.9nm from FAF is where your aircraft would approach the airport IF you were on course.
ATC would transfer you to the airport Advisory freq (122.9) probably after you reported passing RPD...so you could call the airport and get the latest winds. Also, if you are flying this App at or above basic VFR mins, then you need to know if there are any other aircraft in the vicinity. Be alert! Advisory freq are not always manned....they are not ATC towers.
I hope this helps.

Top  Profile send PM
Westcoast Posted: 10.01.2012, 11:27


registered: Jan. 2006
Posts: 964

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.18
Thanks Jerry, that's a [u]very[/u] informative answer; it contains a lot I didn't know. I'll have to study it carefully. Among other things, I see that I was wrong about the requirement to enter the holding pattern, but your explanation for the requirement makes sense.


Top  Profile send PM

Users online:
bilson - knottski

This list bases on the users active in the last 60 minutes

Powered by pnForum Version 2.6

Copyright 2000 - 2012 St. Paul Airlines

Web site powered by PostNuke ADODB database library PHP Language